Einsiedeln, Switzerland, Fuly 2d, 1522.
Your Most Reverend Fatherhood’s most obedient servants,
BALTHASER FRACHSEL,
George Stahl, Verner Steiner, Leo Jun, Erasmus Fabricius, Simon Stumpf
Jopoc KILCHMEYER,
HULDREICH MULLER,; CASPAR MEGANDER,
ToHN Faber, Huldreich Zwingli
III. ACTS OF THE CONVENTION HELD IN THE PRAISE-WORTHY CITY OF ZURICH ON THE 29TH DAY OF JANUARY, ON ACCOUNT OF THE HOLY GOSPEL—BEING A DISPUTATION BETWEEN THE DIGNIFIED AND HONORABLE REPRESENTATIVE FROM CON-STANCE AND HULDRYCH ZWINGLI, PREACHER OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, TOGETHER WITH THE COMMON CLERGY OF THE WHOLE TERRITORY OF THE AFORESAID CITY OF ZURICH, HELD BEFORE THE ASSEMBLED COUNCIL IN THE YEAR 1523.”
[Works, i. 114-168. Translated from the Zurich German by Lawrence A.]
[McLouth, Professor of German, New York University. The matter between]
[brackets is that given in the JJ/orZs, i. 158 sqq., as addenda, but here inserted]
[in proper place.]
[Γ The Protestant Reformation in German Switzerland, as for the most part in]
[Germany and England, was largely dependent upon the good will of princes]
[and other rulers, who joined it for political ends. No one can gainsay the]
[great advantage of their support. So in Zurich Zwingli endeavored to win]
[over to his side the members of the City Council, rightly arguing that if.suc-]
[cessful he would be able to preach the Reformation through the canton, no mat-]
[ter what might be the opposition. He made his appeal to the magistracy to]
[be allowed to bold a public debate, at which they should sit as judges, and]
[give the victory to that side which presented the stronger arguments. He]
[looked forward with great conffdence to such a public debate, for which he]
[had prepared the way by his preaching and writing and talking ever since he -]
[came to Zurich in December, 1518. The City Council took up the idea, and]
[were perhaps flattered by the position they would take in this debate. They]
[issued the invitations to the people of the canton and city of Zurich and to the -]
[bishops of Constance and of the adjoining dioceses. Zwingli prepared and had]
[printed 67 Articles as a programme for the debate, and looked forward with.]
[great eagerness to the time set, which was the 23d of January, 1523.]
[On that eventful day six hundred persons—priests and laymen of the canton]
[of Zurich, along with a few delegates from the bishop of Constance and some]
[others—met in the Town Hall and held the debate, which is preserved to us]
[by Erhart Hegenwald, a schoolmaster in Zurich, who informs us that he wrote]
[it from memory immediately after hearing it. His account was edited by]
[Zwingli and published in Zurich. John Faber (or Fabri), Vicar General of]
[the diocese of Constance, one of the ablest disputants on the Roman Church]
To the worthy ecclesiastical Lord and Father Sir John Jacob Russinger, Abbot at Pfabers, to His gracious Lord Chamberlain Master Erhart Hegenwald T offers his willing service and wishes peace in Christ.
Worthy ecclesiastical Lord and Father: I understand how your dignity and grace is inclined to read and further the Gospel doctrine and truth of God from Christian feeling, which fact I conclude among other things from the following: That Your
[side, bore the brunt of the attacks upon that church. Zwingli was the princi-]
[pal speaker on the otherside. Fabri also published his account of the debate.]
[Ein warlich underrichtung wie es zie Zürich bey de Zwinglin uff den einen und]
[zwentzigsten tag des monats Januarii rest verschine ergangen sey.” (Leipzig?]
[1525.) Init, naturally, he appeared to greater advantage than in Zwingli’s ac-]
[count, but it seems to have given offence to an enthusiastic portion of the audi-]
[ence, and some of these young men thought they had a good opportunity to bring]
[out a satire in the interests of the new faith, and so they concocted a book]
[which was called The Vulture Plucked.” Das gyren rupffen. Nalt inn]
[wie Johann Schmidt Vicarge ze Costentz mit dem büchle darinn er verheiszt]
[ein ware bericht wie es uff den 29 tag Jenner M.D.xxiij. ze Zürich gangen sye]
[sich übersehe hat. Ist voll schimpff unud ernestes.’ This was a gross attack]
[upon Fabri, and he was very indignant and appealed to the city authorities of]
[Zurich to bring the offenders to book, but the city authorities regarded the]
[whole affair as a kind of joke and took no action in the matter. The three]
[accounts of this important debate supplemented one another; the one which]
[may be said to be authentic is here translated, the second is somewhat colored]
[in favor of the Roman Church, and the third, which contains a good deal of]
[truth, along with more or less deliberate falsehood, have been properly drawn]
[upon by the editors of Zwingli’s works, and the corrections and additions they]
[have made from the last two accounts are here incorporated. The result of the debate was the enthusiastic approval of Zwingli’s teachings,]
[and an order from the authorities not only to continue their presentation, but]
[enjoining such teaching upon all the priests of the canton. Thus this debate,]
[which is known as the First Disputation, is of great historical interest as mark-]
[ing the official beginning of the Reformation in German Switzerland. He was one of Zwingli’s friends and correspondents, and active in the]
[cause of the Reformation, but returned to the Roman Church after Zwingli’s]
[death. + He was a school teacher in Zurich.]
Grace undertook to come to the meeting upon the day appointed by the burgomaster and the Council of the city of Zurich concerning the dissension and trouble which had arisen in the city on account of doctrines or sermons, but from business reasons and other accidental causes you were detained and hindered from attending. And although in addition to all the clergymen, preachers and priests that have livings in the city of Zurich and its territories there were invited and summoned to this praiseworthy meeting also many other foreign nobility and common people, prelates, doctors, masters, both secular and ecclesiastical lords, likewise the praiseworthy representative from Constance, when these had appeared at Zurich before the Council in session certain enemies of the Gospel truth (as I hear) ridiculed the matter, announcing and saying that a tinker’s day was being held at Zurich, and that nothing but tinkers were attending. These things have influenced and caused me to describe all the actions, speeches either for or against, which took place in such praise- “worthy assembly of learned, honest and pious men, both eccle- -siastical and secular, so that every one might see and know “whether such action taken and speeches made were by tinkers and pan-menders, also whether the opposing party (which has asserted that the matter is known abroad) tells the truth or lies. For I was there myself and sat with them, heard and understood and remembered all that was said there, and after that I wrote it down in my home, questioned and examined others who had been present at the meeting as to the cases in which I thought I might not have understood correctly. With the true knowledge and witness of all those who were there and took part, about six hundred or more, I may assert that I have written down not more nor less nor different words (as far as the content is concerned) than were spoken in the assembly. I write and send this to Your Grace, and beg Your Grace to accept it with good will and favor as a service. I also urge as a fellow brother in Christ Your Grace to remain in the future as in the past steadfastly by
the Gospel truth, to practice and read industriously in the Gospel and St. Paul and other Holy Scriptures as Your Grace has the. reputation of doing, also to live in Christian conformity with the same according to your full power; to send such reports of action at Zurich to the others who are related to Your Grace in friendship or otherwise in Christian society, as for instance, the worthy and ecclesiastical Lord, etc., Abbot at Disentis, to be read, so that the truth may be known, the Gospel advanced, Christian love increased, men fed with the word of God, our will and spirit may remain united with Christ through His word in peace, joy and harmony here for the time being and there forever. Amen.
Given in the praiseworthy city of Zurich the 3d day of the month of March, in the year 1523.
In order that every one may understand the matter better I have prefixed and written down the mandate of those of Zurich, which mandate was sent out into all the territory and dependencies of the city beforehand as an argument as to the causes for the above-mentioned meeting:
We, the burgomaster, the Council and the Great Council, which they call the two hundred of the city of Zurich, announce to each and every priest, preacher, minister and clergyman who has a living and residence in our cities, counties, principalities, high and low courts and territories, our greeting, favorable and affectionate will, and would have you know that now for considerable time much dissension and trouble have arisen between those who preach from the pulpit the word of God to the common people, some believing that they have preached the Gospel faithfully and wholly, whereas others blame them as though they had not acted skillfully or properly. On the other hand the others call them sources of evil, deceivers and sometimes heretics; but to each one desiring it these offer to give account and reckoning about this everywhere with the aid of God’s Scriptures to the
[Andreas von Valara, who had beea abbot since 1512.]
best of their ability for the sake of the honor of God, peace and Christian unity. So this is our command, will and desire, that you preachers, priests, clergymen, all together and each one separately, if any especial priests desire to speak about this, having livings in our city of Zurich or outside in our territories, or if any desire to blame the opposing party or to instruct them otherwise, shall appear on the day after Emperor Charles’ Day, the 29th day of the month of January, at the early time of the Council, in our city of Zurich, before us in our town hall, and shall announce in German, by the help of true divine Scripture, the matters which you oppose. When we, with the careful assistance of certain scholars, have paid careful attention to the matters, as seems best to us, and after investigations are made with the help of the Holy Scriptures and the truth, we will send each one home with a command either to continue or to desist. After this no one shall continue to preach from the pulpit whatever seems good to him without foundation in the divine Scriptures. We shall also report such matters to our gracious Lord of Constance, so that His Grace or His representative, if He so desire, may also be present. But if any one in the future opposes this, and does not base his opposition upon the true Holy Scriptures, with him we shall proceed further according to our knowledge in a way from which we would gladly be relieved. We also sincerely hope that God Almighty will give gracious light to those who earnestly seek the light of truth, and that we may in the future walk in that light as sons of the light.
Given and preserved under the imprinted seal of the city on Saturday after the Circumcision of Christ and after his birth in the twenty-third year of the lesser reckoning. [Jan. 3, 1522.]
Now when all of the priests, ministers and clergymen in the territories of Zurich obediently appeared at the hour and time announced there were in the Great Council room at Zurich more than six hundred assembled, counting the local and foreign representatives, together with the praiseworthy representation
from Constance, to which an invitation to the same had been sent from Zurich, and when everybody had found a seat at the early time of the Council the burgomaster of Zurich began to speak as follows:
Very learned, noble, steadfast, honorable, wise, ecclesiastical Lords and Friends: For some time in my Lords’ city of Zurich and her territories dissensions and quarrels have arisen on account of certain sermons and teachings delivered to the people from the pulpit by Master Ulrich Zwingli, our preacher here at Zurich, wherefore he has been attacked and blamed as a deceiver by some and by others as a heretic. Wherefore it has come about that not only in our city of Zurich, but also everywhere else in the land in my Lords’ territories such dissensions have increased among the clergy, and also the laity, that daily complaints of the same come before my Lords, and the angry words and quarreling do not seem likely to come to an end. And so Master. Ulrich Zwingli has frequently offered to give the causes and reasons for his sermons and doctrines preached here in the public pulpit so often in Zurich in case a public discussion before all the clergy and the laity were granted him. At this offer of Master Ulrich the honorable Council at Zurich, desiring to stop the disturbance and dissension, has granted him permission to hold a public discussion in the German language before the Great Council at Zurich, which they call the two hundred, to which the honorable and wise Council has summoned all of you priests and ministers from her territories. It also requested the worthy Lord and Prince, etc., Bishop of Constance, to send his representative to this meeting, for which favor the honorable Council of Zurich expresses especial thanks to him. Therefore if there is any one here who may feel any displeasure or doubt in Master Ulrich’s sermons or doctrines preached here at Zurich in the pulpit, or if any one desires to say anything or knows anything to say in the matter to the effect that such sermons and teachings are not true, but misleading or heretical, he can prove the truth
of the same before my Lords, the often mentioned Master Ulrich, and show him at once his error by means of the Scriptures, and he shall be free and safe and with perfect immunity, so that my Lords may in the future be relieved of the daily complaints which arise from such dissension and quarrels. For my Lords have become weary of such complaints, which have been increasing gradually from both clergy and laity.
At these remarks and invitation Sir Fritz von Anwyl, knight, and Chamberlain of the Bishop of Constance, made answer, and spoke as follows:
Very learned, worthy, noble, provident, wise, etc. “The worthy Lord and Prince, Sir Hugo, by grace of God Bishop of Constance, my gracious Lord, well knows and is for the most part well informed that now everywhere in his Grace’s bishopric many quarrels and dissensions of many kinds with regard to doctrines or sermons have arisen in almost every place. And although his. Grace has ever been of the desire and feeling, and always will be if God will, to show himself always gracious, kind and willing in all those things which can further peace and harmony, still his Grace at the especial request and petition of the wise and honorable Council of Zurich has ordered your accredited representatives here present, the worthy Lords, Sir Doctor Vergenhans, canon, his Grace’s Vicar,] Sir Doctor Martin, of Tübingen, together with myself, his Grace’s servant, to listen to and to hear such causes of dissension. He has recommended us to act in such matters not otherwise than kindly, to say the best that we - can in the matter, so that it result in the honor, peace and har- He later went over to the Reformed Church.
t Von Hohenlandenberg, d. 1532.
t Johannes Heigerlin, commonly called Faber or Fabri, because his father was a smith. He became successively pastor at Lindau, vicar-general of Constance (1516) and bishop of Vienna (1530). Born at Lentkirch, near Lake Constance, in 1478, he died at Baden, near Vienna, May 21, 1541.
Blansch. He wrote later at Constance against the Reformed preachers.
mony for the honorable Council of Zurich, likewise the worthy clergy. Wherefore, learned, worthy, honorable, wise Lords and good friends, I say: If there is any one here present who desires to make any remonstrance or accusation on account of the doctrines or sermons that have been delivered here, we shall, according to the commands of my gracious Lord of Constance, as his Grace’s representatives, listen gladly and willingly, and for the sake of peace and harmony, as far as in us lies, shall help to judge the dissension, if such has arisen or shall arise, in order that a worthy clergy may remain in peace and friendship until my gracious Lord and Prince, together with his Grace’s scholars and prelates, shall further discuss and consider these matters. That was the sum of his whole discourse.
Then Master Ulrich Zwingli spoke in answer, and his remarks in the beginning were as follows:
Pious brothers in Christ, Almighty God has always shown His divine grace, will and favor to man from the beginning of the world, has been as kind as a true and almighty father, as we read and know from all the Sriptures, so that everlasting, merciful God has communicated His divine word and His will to man as a consolation. And although at some times He has kept away this same word, the light of truth, from the sinful and godless struggling against the truth, and although He has allowed to fall into error those men who followed their own will and the leadings of their wicked nature, as we are truly informed in all Bible histories, still He has always in turn consoled His own people with the light of His everlasting word, so that, whereas they had fallen into sin and error, they may again be lifted by His divine mercy, and He has never entirely forsaken them or let them depart from His divine recognition. This I say to you, dear brethren, for this purpose. You know that now in our time, as also many years heretofore, the pure, clear and bright light, the. word of God, has been so dimmed and confused and paled with human ambitions and teachings that the majority who by word
of mouth call themselves Christians know nothing less than the divine will. But by their own invented service of God, holiness, external spiritual exhibition, founded upon human customs and laws, they have gone astray, and have thus been persuaded by those whom people consider learned and leaders of others to the extent that the simple think that such invented external worship is spiritual, and that the worship of God, which they have put upon themselves, necessariy conduces to happiness, although all our true happiness, consolation and good consists, not in our merits, nor in such external works, rather alone in Jesus Christ our Saviour, to whom the heavenly Father Himself gave witness that we should hear Him as His beloved Son. His will and true service we can learn and discover only from His true word in the Holy Scriptures and in the trustworthy writings of His twelve apostles, otherwise from no human laws and statutes. Since now certain pious hearts have ventured to preach this by the grace and inspiration of God’s holy spirit, and to bring it before the people, they call these preachers not Christians, but persecutors of the Christian Church, and even heretics. I am considered one of these by many of the clergy and the laity everywhere in the Confederation. And although I know that for the past five years I have preached in this city of Zurich nothing but the true, pure and clear word of God, the holy Gospel, the joyous message of Christ, the Holy Scripture, not by the aid of man, but by the aid of the Holy Ghost, still all this did not help me. But I am maligned by many as a heretic, a liar, a deceiver, and one diso- bedient to the Christian Church, which facts are well known to my Lords of Zurich, I made complaint of these things before them as my Lords; I have often entreated and begged of them in the public pulpit to grant me permission to give an account of my sermons and preachings (delivered in their city) before all men, learned or not, spiritual or secular, also before our gracious Lord, the Bishop of Constance, or his representative. This I also offered to do in the city of Constance, providing a safe permit was assured
At such remarks of Master Ulrich the Vicar t from Constance arose, and answered as follows:
Learned, worthy, noble, steadfast, favorable, wise, etc. My good fellow-brother and Lord, Master Ulrich, begins and complains that he has always preached the holy Gospel here publicly in Zurich, of which I have no doubt, for who would not truly and faithfully preach the holy Gospel and St. Paul, providing God had ordained him as a preacher? For I am also a preacher, or priest, perhaps unworthy, but I have taught those entrusted to me for instruction in the word of God in nothing but the true Gospel, which I can also prove with true witness. And I shall. for the future not in any way cease to preach this, providing God This refers to the 67 Articles he issued preparatory to the Disputation.
T That is the vicar-general.
does not require me for other labors in the service of my gracious Lord of Constance. For the holy Gospel is a power of God, as St. Paul writes to the Romans (i. 16), to each one who believes therein.
But now that Master Ulrich begins and complains that certain people blame him as not having spoken and preached the truth, but offers and has offered to answer for his speeches and sermons to any one, also (even) in Constance, I say, dear Lords, that if Master Ulrich, my good Lord and friend, should come to me in Constance I would show him as my good friend and Lord all friendship and honor as far as lay in my power, and if he so desires would also entertain him in my house, not only as a good friend, but also as a brother. Of this he is assured at my hands. Further, I say that I did not come here to oppose evangelical or apostolical doctrines, but to hear those who are said to speak or to have spoken against the doctrine of the holy Gospel, and if any dissension should arise or should have arisen to help to judge and to decide the matter in kindness, as far as may be, to the end of peace and harmony rather than disturbance (discord). For the Gospel and the divine Paul teach only what serves to [ grace and peace, not to disturbance and strife. But if there is a desire to dispute and oppose good old customs, the ways and usages of the past, then in such case I say that I shall not
[[ You well understood how Zwingli spoke about peace and strife; and]
[the words he spoke you refer to yourself. Zwingli spoke not about {πε]
[strife of weapons or the discord of the faithful. For you know well that]
[he said: God be thanked that the pious city of Zürich is so inclined to -]
[peace, and knows well that this comes from the word of God alone, which -]
[they hear and accept so faithfully.” But I say that the Gospel commands]
[strife between the faithful and the Godless. Do you not know how Christ says]
[in the Gospel of Matt. x. 34, “1 am not come,’ etc.? How can it be preached]
[in peace? Indeed, if the whole world were believers it might be; otherwise]
[not. For Christ is the stumbling-block, at which many will be offended; these]
[are of the world, and the devil is their Lord, who will untertake to maintain]
[his empire without ceasing with hisown?” (Hans Hager in Gyrenrupfen.’’)]]
undertake to dispute anything here at Zurich. For, as I think, such matters are to be settled by a general Christian assembly of. all nations, or by a council of bishops and other scholars as are found at universities, just as occurred in times past among the holy apostles in Jerusalem, as we read in Acts xv. For if such matters touching the common customs and the praiseworthy usages of the past were discussed, and some decision reached against them, such changes would perhaps not please other Christians dwelling in other places, who would doubtless assert that they had not consented to our views. For what would those in Spain, in Italy, in France and in the North say about it? Such things must surely, as I said, be ratified and maintained as formerly, by a general council, in order to be valid elsewhere. Therefore, dear lords, I speak now for myself. As a Christian member and brother in Christ I beg and urge you to consider these things well, lest hereafter further and greater strife and harm may result. Accordingly it would be my sincere advice to drop any difference or dissension that may have arisen concerning papal or other ecclesiastical ordinances (constitutions) of long standing, and without further disputing to lay aside and postpone them, to see if they could not be arranged meantime more peacefully and advantageously. For my gracious Lord of Constance is informed that it is decided at Nuremberg by the estates (SZinden) of the empire to hold a general council of the German nation within a year, in which I hear half the judges selected are secular and the other half ecclesiastical, and they are to judge and decide about the things which are now disturbing nearly all the world. If such takes place these matters should be referred to them as having the authority and power. And so it is the earnest desire of my Lord, as far as possible, to have such differences about the clergy settled without dispute. for the good of yourselves and all (other) Christians. For though these old ordinances, laws and customs should be discussed pro and coz upon scriptural basis, who would be judge of
these matters? According to my opinion whatever such things one would discuss should be brought before the universities, as at Paris, Cologne or Louvain. (Here all laughed, for Zwingli interrupted by asking: How about Erfurt? Would not Wittenberg do?” Then the legate said: “No; Luther was too near.” He also said: “All bad things come from the North.”) There one can find many taught in the Scriptures, who have ability to handle so great subjects. In this remark I do not wish to be taken as speaking to the discredit of any one’s honor or knowledge, but as a Christian member, and with entire good nature I announce this. But as far as my office and commission are concerned, I have been sent here, as I said before, for no other purpose than to listen, and not to dispute.
[[ You have left out the right sense, namely, that everything should be]
[written down. Now speak and give answer if we did not dispute fore and]
[afternoon about a judge, when Master Ulrich Zwingli declared that he]
[would not suffer any one as judge except all Christian believers. Have]
[you not ears and heard that I have often referred to this opinion; always at]
[times when heretics arose a council was held, and by its means the heretics]
[had been thus subdued? Hereupon I named Arius, Sabellius, Nestorius,]
[Manichee and many others; and what was thus recognized thereby it should]
[remain. For if this were not done and held (have you not heard that I said?),]
[there would be as many beliefs as there are many countries, yea as many as]
[there are cities, villages, estates, houses and people, if one does come with]
[matters pertaining to the interpretation of the Scriptures before the councils.]
[I have further shown that in recent years in such matters as have arisen thus]
[between scholars, and always in times of misunderstanding in regard to the]
[Scripture, the universities have been chosen as judges. But when one of you]
[spoke, his words were considered as flowing from the spirit of God, as if into]
[you alone the spirit of God enters (as St. Paul writes), and you alone were the -]
[wine-rooms of Jove, and all secrets of the empire of God were made known in]
[them; but what the holy Fathers spoke, wrote and ordained, and also the]
[speeches of us, the ambassadors, were to be considered as human nonsense,]
[as I have related at length. St. Paul himself awaited and received from the]
[apostles a letter (Acts xv.), in which they wrote: For it seemed good to the]
[Holy Ghost and us,’ etc., and yet he was ordained by God as magister,]
[as magister gentium.” Hence the worthy Master Ulrich Zwingli should justly]
[also await and accept decision and judgment. This was said by me more than]
Then Master Ulrich Zwingli spoke as follows: Pious brothers in Christ, the worthy Lord Vicar seeks so many evasions and. subterfuges for the purpose of turning your simplicity from your understanding with artful, rhetorical, evasive words. For he claims and says that he does not desire to discuss the good old
[once before noon, but never before noon answered by the worthy Master Ulrich.]
[To be sure, after noon he did say a little, but did not better the matter, but as]
[far as he was concerned (as I understood it) made it worse. (Faber.) Hereupon Hans Hab, according to Gyrenrupfen,’ answered: It may be]
[that Zwingli forgot to answer in the forenoon; what does that matter? Who would]
[have cared to answer your lengthy nonsense? But didn’t he answer it after din-]
[ner? Hence let us sit in judgment upon the XV. chapter of the Acts, then we]
[shall find it is against you, and not for you. You have spoken in this manner,]
[we will now let it be, and as often as one wished to consider the books you have]
[gotten out of it in another fashion.” Faber continues: In his little book]
[about the choice of food Zwingli has permitted all food, and still it is found in]
[the letter which Paul received at Jerusalem from the twelve apostles that the]
[sacrifice of calves and other meat which was offered to the idols was forbidden.]
[He thinks that this ordinance has expired if there is no more heathenism or]
[idolatry, which I did not answer for good reason. But see whether there be]
[not in Africa still idolatry, and Christians still live among them in the newly-]
[discovered islands,’ etc. Hereupon Hab (ib.) again: Do you not remember]
[that Zwingli said Paul himself did not keep it? Why don’t you look at the]
[Scriptures with him?’ Faber continues: Not I, but Mr. Fritz v. Anwyl,]
[reported concerning this at the council of Nürnberg. For that I refer to him]
[and your lords of Zürich. But if nevertheless I have said it, then see whether]
[Master Ulrich or I had better information from Nürnberg—look at the decree]
[of Nürnberg. But the new teachers and evangelists from the North do not]
[wish any weight to be given to past or future decrees or councils unless they]
[favor them. But they do rightly; they know that their doctrine would be]
[condemned before even half of the fathers had gathered—they cannot endure]
[the councils. Their song must not only be the song of the angels, but of God,]
[and whatever the pious fathers say only human foolishness.” (Faber, correc-]
[tion.) How often have you heard from Zwingli that he did not wish to have]
[only two judges, but to have all believers judge whether you or he is corrupting]
[the Scriptures. But you were unable to come to this.” ( Gyrenrupfen."")]]
[[ Have you not heard that Zwingli said there was too much of my talk,]
[and I thereupon offered to prove my statements if all things were noted down,]
[for I do not care to speak into the air?” (Faber.)]]
customs or venerable usages concerning ecclesiastical ordinances, but I say that we do not want to ask here how long this or that custom or habit has been in use. But we desire to speak of the truth (to find out), whether a man is bound by divine ordinance to keep that which on account of long usage has been set up as law by men. For we of course think (as also the pope’s own decree says) that custom should yield to truth. As to claiming that such matters should be settled by a Christian assembly of all nations, or by a council of bishops, etc., I say that here in this room is without doubt a Christian assembly. For I hope that the majority of us here desire from divine will and love to hear, to further and to know the truth, which wish Almighty God will not deny us if we desire it to His honor with right belief and right hearts. For the Lord says: Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them. Also in times past did not bishops assemble in councils as secular princes? How then are we to claim and say that the pious fathers of past times assembled for Christian business? Were there not doubtless such powerful prelates and bishops as now, as they say there must be? This is truthfully proved by the testimony of trustworthy writings of old. And this is proved also by the word Episcopus,” which when properly turned into German means no more than a watchman or overseer who has the care and attention of his people, and who is also charged with instructing them in the divine belief and will; in good German this is a clergyman (Pfarrer). Since now here in this assembly there are so many honest, pious, Christian men, not alone living within the territories of my Lords of Zurich, but also coming from elsewhere, and also many learned, Godfearing bishops and clergymen, who sit here without doubt to further the truth of God and to hear and to know the divine truth, there is then, in spite of what the Vicar says, no reason why they should
[[ In which there are many Godfearing curates; also many doctors and]
[real friends of God.” (Bullinger.)]]
not discuss these matters, speak and decide the truth. To the! remark that the other nations would not consent, I answer that this 15 just the complaint which is made every day concerning the big moguls ” (grossen Hansen, literally “big Jacks), bishops and, priests, that they undertake to keep the pure and clear Gospel, the Holy Scriptures, from the common people. For they say that it is not proper for any but themselves to expound the Scriptures, just as though other pious men were not Christians and had nothing to do with the spirit of God, and must be without knowledge of God’s word. And there are also some of them who might say that it is improper to publish the secrets of the divine Scriptures. For there is no doubt in my mind that if the pure truth of Christ alone, not adulterated with human ordinances, were preached to the above-mentioned peoples or nations, and not covered up with papal and imperial mandates and those of bishops, they would as pious Christian hearts accept the truth and let the customs or ordinances (constitutions) of men go, and enlightened by God’s word, would be in harmony and agreement with the others. However, as to the council which is said to be announced at Nuremberg, it seems to me that the thing is proposed only to put off the common people desirous of God’s word. For I tell you, dear Lords, that letters came to me about three days ago from Nuremberg, which I could show if necessary, in which there was, to be sure, some mention made of a council, but I do not understand that anything has really been decided. For pope, bishops, prelates and the big moguls’ will allow no council in which the divine Scriptures were set forth in their clearness and purity. It is also plain that nothing wil come of it this year, however much the common Christian earnestly did toward it, because sufficient supplies could not be
[[I did not write a book de non revelandis mysteriis,” but against the]
[.rash, against those who in an impious manner handle holy things or Scriptures.’]
[(Faber.)]]
[T These letters are no longer extant.]
collected in so short a tire for so large an assembly. I concede also that a council will be announced in time. But meanwhile how are we to treat those whose consciences have gone astray so far as to desire eagerly to know the truth? Would you rob these thirsty souls of the truth, let them hang in doubt, frighten them by human ordinances, and let them live or die in uncertainty as to the truth? Really, my pious brethren, this is no small thing. God will not demand of us what pope, bishop and council establish and command, nor how long this or that has been in praiseworthy and ancient usage, but He will find out how His divine will, word and commandments have been kept. Now finally, since reference is made 1o the judges which my Lord Vicar thinks cannot be found outside the universities, I say that we have here infallible and unprejudiced judges, that is the Holy Writ, which can neither lie nor deceive. “These we have
[[Hager in Gyrenrupfen presents the dispute about the council thus:]
[After this Mr. Fritz, the majordomo, very cleverly presented the com-]
[mand of his master, saying that his master had been surely informed,]
[that in a year there would be a council. Concerning this Zwingli did]
[not wish to speak. Thereupon you immediately began to speak, and rose]
[and said the same as Mr. Fritz had just said, and in a nice way referred]
[to the future council and showed yourself a little more, just as if the matter]
[had not also been commended to you. Thereupon Zwingli arose, and said we]
[should not be led astray by the council; he also had had a letter in which he]
[was informed how the German princes had demanded from the pope that he]
[have a council within a year, but that the pope had formally assented had not]
[yet happened, nor is it possible (he said) that within the space of a year a]
[general council could be gathered together; furthermore the three mightiest]
[lords, King of France, Emperor, and King of England, were at war with each -]
[other, who could not easily be conciliated; also that the fixing of the council]
[would be left to the Germans. Hence one could see that the promise of a]
[council was only a postponement, not a definite resolve; but it mattered little]
[whether they had a council or not, for he believed that no man would live to]
[see a council in which the word of God would be allowed to rule. Therefore,”]
[even if a council should be held at once, one would not care either, for we]
[would depend upon and preach the word of God; may the councils determine]
[herein what they please.” After this he from Neftenbach arose and spoke.]]
present in Hebrew, Greek and Latin tongues; these let us take on both sides as fair and just judges.
Also we have here in our city, God be praised, many learned colleagues who are as sufficiently taught in these three languages as none at the universities just named and mentioned by the Lord Vicar. But Iam speaking of those who conduct the abovementioned universities as superiors and heads; I do not mean Erasmus of Rotterdam and others, who stay at times at the universities as strangers and guests. Here in this room are sitting also doctors of the Holy Writ, doctors of canonical law, many scholars from the universities. “They should hear the Scriptures which are referred to, have them read, to see if that is so which they try and pretend to support by divine Scriptures. And as if all that was not sufficient there are in this assembly many Christian hearts, taught doubtless by the Holy Spirit, and possessing such upright understanding, that in accordance with God’s spirit they can judge and decide which party produces Scripture on its side, right or wrong, or otherwise does violence to Scripture contrary to proper understanding. There is therefore no reason why excuse should here be made. Hence, dear friends, do not let the speeches here made frighten you. And especially you of Zurich should consider it a great blessing and power of God that such an undertaking should be made here in your city to the praise and honor of God, in order that the pious subjects of your territories and lands should no longer, as heretofore, be suspended in doubt and dissension. With humble hearts call upon God. He will not refuse you His divine recognition, as the epistle of James promises, if you ask in true faith, and do not let yourselves
[[On the contrary I told how Paul did not boast of the languages]
[when he went to the Corinthians, not in sublimitate sermonis or high]
[wisdom. “Thus one finds in the life of Hilary that the evil spirit often]
[spoke in Greek and other tongues. And therefore I did not boast, rightly,]
[about the languages, although I brought with me to you from Constance the]
[Hebrew and Greek Bible; also had them both with you at the city hall. Do]
[you think I have never heard or read Hebrew or Greek?’ (Faber.)]]
be dissuaded and deceived in any way by smooth and pleasant (well-appearing) words.
At these words of Zwingli’s every one remained silent for a time, and no one wanted to say anything upon the matter, till the burgomaster of Zurich arose and urged any there present who wished to say anything about the matter, or knew anything to say about the affair, to step forward. But no one spoke.
Since thus every one was silent, and no one was anxious to speak against Master Ulrich, who had before been called a heretic behind his back, Master Ulrich himself arose and spoke: For the sake of Christian love and truth I urge and beg all who have spoken earnestly to me on account of my sermons to step forward and to instruct me, for the sake of God, in the truth in the presence of so many pious and learned men. In case they do not do this I assure them that I shall summon publicly by name each of them, of whom I know many to be present. But on account of brotherly love I wish to inform them beforehand, so that they may arise of themselves unsummoned by me and prove me a heretic. But no one desired to come forward or say anything against him.
Meantime Gutschenkel [a buffoon from Bern], standing in front by the door, cut a ridiculous caper, and cried out: Where are now the big moguls’ that boast so loudly and bravely on. the streets? Now step forward! Here is the man. You can all boast over your wine, but here no one stirs.”” All laughed at that. Then Master Ulrich arose again, urged and begged a second time all who had accused and attacked him about his sermons to step forth and prove him a heretic. In case they did not do that, and did not step forward unsummoned by name, he would
[[Am I not right? If you do not do that I shall name those who call me]
[heretic, but I warn you in advance that it is more honest to step forward un-]
[called.” (Bullinger.) The word of the abbot of Cappel: Where are they]
[now who wish to burn us?’ Bullinger places here.]]
[A village 12 miles northeast of Zurich. T In Füssli’s Beitrdgen, IV., 125-129. t On the border of Switzerland, but in Baden. His name was Urban Weiss.]
[He had announced from his pulpit on his return from the Zurich meeting of]
[August 15, 1522, that he would no longer call upon the Virgin Mary or the]
[saints. He also married. The bishop of Constance complained against him]
[at the Diet of Baden, which wished him arrested, but some friends went surety]
[“for him. However, the Diet in November, 1522, ordered his arrest. He was]
[examined in Constance, and apparently as the result of the use of torture re-]
[canted and then was liberated.]
further, and I would like to have judgment as to how I should act in the future as to such mandate of the bishop.
[[Faber accuses Hegenwald of error in the order of his speeches. You note me down as if I had made the fourth speech, and bring forth]
[a speech of which truly I would be ashamed, provided I could not erase it by]
[means of the Scriptures better by the grace of God. You have noted me down]
[as if I had immediately broken forth after the speech of Zwingli, which you]
[know is not true. For I learnt long ago from Roman histories that an ambas-]
[sador should not exceed his authority. This I have not forgotten, that one]
[should not preach unless he be sent. Therefore since I have not been sent by]
[my gracious lord as a combatant, but as a spectator, yea as a peaceful umpire,]
[I did not wish to answer the many speeches and demands; also partly exhor-]
[tation of Zwingli. And where there had been’a long silence, you know that]
[Mr. Ulrich having dared to name several, requested us from Constance urgently,]
[still I maintained silence until the priest (whom you call), v. Mittenbach (Nef-]
[tenbach), referred to my gracious lord and myself so much and so clearly that]
[I thought, and I also said it to the mighty lord Fritz Jacob v. Anwyl, that I]
[could not leave that unanswered. For although you closed the speech accord-]
[ing to your wont, still you omit that the priest says among other things that the]
[bishop of Constance had forbidden to preach the Gospel—write what the Vicar]
[there said—then you will find that I said before, I am not here to suppress the]
[Gospel and St. Paul, for who would do that in view of the tale how the ange]]
[had brought and proclaimed to the shepherds upon the pasture when Christ]
[was born the consoling message that in the Gospel was the salvation, yea the]
[way and the truth, in comparing the New and Old Testament; also the four evan-]
[gelists are the four rivers of Paradise, which make fruitful the whole world with]
[the water of divine grace; it has been arranged with better order, as St. Paul]
[says, and I also have helped in it, since my scholastici doctores’ have been]
[diligently read and underscored by me, so that they also have become dirty]
[from my hands. Thus I have also seen that it would be better and more]
[wholesome to leave sophistry and to bring forward the Gospel and the prophets]
[and also other divine writings. Therefore I held to the first proposition, how.]
[this might happen and the Gospel be brought forth, which then is true even if.]
[Master Ulrich Zwingli had never come to Zürich. But I was not thus minded,]
[and did not help to arrange the proposition so that the Gospel should be]
[preached in a revolutionary manner, but according to the essential Christian]
[and peaceful understanding. And furthermore I declared the Gospel does not]
[consist in reading, but in the strength of God, yea in the correct interpretation]
[and understanding, and I have proved by two places in the Gospel of Matthew,]
[Matt. iv. 6, where the tempter cites the saying Ps. xc. From this I have shown]
[that also the evil spirit might, as an old scholar, use and know the Scriptures—]
[and Matt. ii. 6, where the scribes cite the saying of Micah of Bethlehem, but]
[omitted the following correct point—thus by means of these two quotations I]
[have well proven that it is not always sufficient to cite the Gospel or the Scrip-]
[tures (although they have the first seat and the greatest honor), and that the]
[Scriptures do not consist in the reading, but in the correct interpretation; thus]
[and not otherwise it was done. Why didn’t you note that down also for me?]
[Why do you conceal that from me? And in still more unfair and wrongful]
[fashion did you note down this and other of my speeches, how I so often cited]
[the pope and the pope’s affairs.” (Faber, correction.) When you cited]
[how also the devil had made use of the Scriptures, Zwingli had answered that]
[“is what he was there for, to give answer that he had used them correctly. But]
[you do not wish to take hold of the Scriptures.” (Hans Hager in Gyren-]
[rupfen.”)]]
Therefore as far as concerns this mandate I do not desire to speak further. But since the good, pious gentleman (I don’t know where he sits, because I cannot see him,) has referred to the priest imprisoned at Constance my office requires me to make answer. You all know, dear sirs, how this priest was turned over to my gracious Lord of Constance by the common peers [lit. confederates: citizens of the Confederacy] in the diet at Baden as a guilty man. Accordingly my gracious Lord had the prisoner examined and questioned by appointees of his Grace, and the prisoner was found to be an ignorant and erring man in the divine Scriptures, and I myself have often pitied his unskillful remarks. For by my faith I can say that I questioned him myself, went to him in Christian love, set forth to him some of the Scriptures from St. Paul, and he made— what shall I say?— very inaccurate answers. Ah, my dear sirs, what shall I say about this good, simple fellow? He is really untutored, and is not even a grammarian. For in Christian brotherly love, kindly and without any anger, I mentioned to him some Scriptures, as for instance, that the noble Paul exhorted Timothy, saying: Pietas ad omnia utilis (kindness and greatness are good in all things), and his answer was so childish and unchristian as to be improper to mention and report in the Confederation. But that you may really know, my dear sirs, I spoke with him about praying to the dear saints and to the mother of God, also about their intercession, and I found him so ignorant and unchristian on these points that I pity his error. He insists on making living out of the dead, although the Scriptures show that also before the birth of Christ the dear saints were prayed to and called upon for others, as I finally convinced and persuaded him by means of Scriptures, that is, by Genesis, Exodus, Ezechiel and Baruch. 1 also brought matters so far that he recanted his error, and desires to recant al his errors about the mother of God and the dear saints. I also hope that he will be grateful to me and soon be released.
[‘That is not a Latinist.]
Therefore, my dear sirs, with regard to the impirsoned priest there is truly no reason why my gracious Lord of Constance, or ’ his representative, should be blamed for this affair. For nothing has been done other than what was proper, fair and becoming.
To this Master Ulrich answered as folows: Dear brethren in Christ, it doubtlessly happened, not without especial destiny and will of God, that my Lord Vicar has just spoken about the praying to and the intercession of the saints and the mother of God. For that is not the least of the Articles issued by me, upon which I have preached somewhat, and at which so many simple folk are troubled as though they were frightened by a heretical [lit. unchristian] sermon. For I know, and truly find in the divine Scriptures, that Jesus Christ alone can bless us, who, as Paul says, alone is the justice of all men, who has expiated our sins, and He alone, our salvation and Saviour, is the means of intercession between His heavenly Father and us humans who believe, as Saint Paul clearly says to the Hebrews, and as you of Zürich have often heard from me when I preached to you from your favorite, the epistle to the Hebrews. Now since my Lord Vicar announces and publicly boasts of how he convinced the imprisoned priest at Constance, the clergyman of Fislisbach, by means of the divine Scriptures, of the fact that one should pray to the dear saints and the mother of God, therefore that they are our mediators with God, I beg of him for the sake of God and of Christian love to show me the place and location, also the words of the Scriptures, where it is written that one should pray to the saints as mediators, so that if I have erred, and err now, I may be better instructed, since there are here present Bibles in the Hebrew, Greek and Latin languages. These we will have examined by those present who are sufficiently well taught in the above-mentioned tongues, so I desire no more to be shown than the chapters in which such is written, as my Lord Vicar states, then we will have it found and read, so that we may see whether it is the meaning of Scripture that the saints are to be prayed to as mediators. In
case that is so, and is really found to be in Scripture (as the Vicar also asserts to have convinced the imprisoned priest), I also will gladly, as an ignorant man, submit to instruction where I have erred.
Answer of the Vicar to the Words of Master Ulrich
DEAR Sirs: [566 very well that the game is going beyond me. I said before that I was present not to dispute, but as the representative of my gracious Lord to speak kindly if any dissension arose on account of the disputation. Thus I very well see things are going with me as the wise man said, the foolish are easily caught in their words, but it is perhaps the fault of my folly that I undertook to speak not as a wise man. Since I have been summoned to answer by Master Ulrich, I will say that some hundreds of years ago it happened, my dear sirs, that heresy and dissension arose in the Church, the causes and beginners of which were Novatians, Montanists, Sabellians, Ebionites, Marcionites and others, under whose false teachings and error many articles like these of our times were planted in men, and by their teachings many believing folk went astray. Among these some asserted that praying to the dear saints and their intercession, as also of the mother of Godand that purgatory, too, did not exist, but were man’s invention, and the like. In order to close up such misleading roads and ways of error many pious bishops and fathers met in many places, at one time in Asia, then in Africa, then somewhere in Greece, that they might hold synods and councils, and to avoid and stop heresy and such things. And afterward constitutiones (that is, ordinances and decisions) were made, prescribed and commanded about those matters by the holy fathers and the popes that such (heretical views) should not be held, having been rejected by the Christian Church. And although this was firmly and irrevocably ratified a long time ago by decrees of the popes and bishops, and considered wrong in Christian churches, still later schisms, dissenting parties and sects have sprung up in
Europe, as, to mention their names, the Bohemians, Picards, who were led astray by such heretics as Wyclif and Hus, living contrary to the decrees and ordinances of the holy popes, acting contrary to the regulations of the Christian Church and not putting any faith in the intercession of the saints, or still less in purgatory. And although such heresy and error were later rejected by all men of Christian belief, and although those who live and remain in such error were considered, recognized and proclaimed by the holy councils as sundered members of the mother of Christian churches, still one now finds those who stir up these things anew, and undertake to bring into doubt that which many years ago was recognized and decided upon as untrue and erroneous by pope and bishop. They undertake to drive us from old customs, which have endured and stood in honor these seven hundred years, planning to overturn and upset all things. For first they went at the pope, cardinals and bishops, then they turned all cloisters topsy-turvy, after that they fell upon purgatory. And when they had left the earth they at last ascended to heaven and went at the saints and great servants of God. Saint Peter with his keys, indeed our dear Lady, the mother of God, could not escape their disgraceful attacks. And I know some places where they had gone so far as even to Christ Himself.
Shall it now go so far that not only the authorities and ecclesiastics on earth, but also God and the chosen in heaven, must be punished? If so, it is a pity. Shall not all that be nothing and count as nothing which the pious, holy fathers assembled in the holy spirit of God have made and unanimously decided? It cannot but have grown up to the great injury and disgrace of all Christendom. For the holy fathers and all our ancestors must have erred, and for now fourteen hundred years Christianity must have been misled and ruled in error, which it were unchristian to believe, I do not need to say. Now if the interces- sion of the dear saints has ever been ratified as necessary and useful by popes, bishops, fathers and councils, and if since the
time of the holy pope Gregory (II.) it has continued in use among all Christianity, it seems strange to me that now for the first time people desire to consider this wrong and erroneous, contrary to Christian ordinance, although there are few men who do not feel the aid of the mother of God and the dear saints, not alone among us Christians, but also among some unbelieving heathen. If we here at Ziirich are now to speak and fight against such customs common to all the world, and especially those preserved so long by Christians, let each one think for himself how that would please those in the Orient, the Occident, from sunrise to sunset, also those in Hibernia, Mauritania, Syria, Cappadocia or in the Cyclades. I do not need to mention countries nearer ourlands. Truly, dear sirs, it would be well to consider beforehand what dangers and dissensions might arise for Christianity if one were not in harmony and agreement with the whole com- munity in these matters. For you see, as also a heathen called Sallust in Jugurtha “testifies, that small things arise from unity, but from dissension great things decrease and fall away. Therefore my advice would be, not to consider anything of these affairs which pertain to the whole Church, but to save them for a general council. And although Master Ulrich refers to Bibles in Hebrew, Latin and Greek, and thereby consoles himself, which Scripture also those here present being taught sufficiently well in the three languages should examine, and such Scripture as is pertinent to the case they should judge and consider, still I say, in the first place, that is not a small gift of God to (be able to) expound the above-mentioned languages, and I do not boast that I possess it. For these are especial gifts of God, as also Paul says to the Corinthians (xii. 7-10): Unique datur manifestatio spiritus ad utilitatem, to each is given the manifestation of the spirit for use, to the one faith, to the other eloquence, to this one the interpretation of languages, etc. Of these graces or gifts I cannot boast of possessing any, as I know nothing of Hebrew, am not well taught in Greek, and understand Latin only tolerably.
For 1 am no orator or poet, and do not pretend to be. Finally! I say, the evangelical and apostolical Scripture is not found in the wise, brilliant or flowery, smooth words, but in the power of God, as Paul says, 1 Cor. ii. 4. Thus, as before, it seems to me not to be sufficient that one apply or bring forward Scripture, but it is also important that one understand Scripture correctly. With that in view perhaps one should attend to such matters at, the universities (as at Paris, Cologne or Lyons, or elsewhere), as I said before.
Answer of Master Ulrich
SIR Vicar: There is no further need of such smooth and roundabout words. I desire that you tell me only with what portion of Scripture you convinced the priest imprisoned at Constance, clergyman of Fislisbach, that he was not a Christian, and brought him to a revocation of his error. This is the point upon which we desire to hear in kindness your answer. Show us simply where in the books heretofore cited by you in the matter of praying to the saints and of their intercession it is stated that they are our mediators. This we desire to know from you. Therefore I beg you for the sake of Christian love, do this with plain, unadulterated, divine Scripture, as you boast to have done in the case of the priest imprisoned at Constance. Indicate the chapter and answer the question as asked in simple words, saying here or there it is written. Then we will see if it is so, and in case we are persuaded and convinced of it we will gladly submit to instruction. There is no need of long speeches. For your long quoting and citing of many writings of the ancients looks more like seeking the praise and favor of the audience than the furthering of the truth. Probably I also could bring in many narratives and essays of the ancients, but it is not to the point. We well know that many things were decided upon in times
[[’ Upon Fathers and councils one no longer depends, unless they prove]
[their case by the Scriptures.” (Bullinger.)]]
past by the fathers in council assembled which were afterward repealed and revoked by others who thought they assembled in the spirit of God, as is plainly found in the Nicene Council and that of Gangra, in the first of which the clergy was allowed to marry, and all those who spoke against it were cursed, while the second decided upon the opposite. f It is als» a fact that many times ordinances (cezsZiufioenes) have been issued
[[Held in the 4th century. Gangra was the capital of ten Asia Minor]
[provinces of Paphlagonia. ] t [ Not a word is written concerning this in the canons of the council of]
[Nicza.” To be sure Zwingli said that Paphnutius in the council of Niczea had]
[been, by which Zwingli means that marriage at that time (although he partly errs)]
[was permitted. Nowin the council of Gangra you say in your report Zwingli had]
[said it had been forbidden. How could you lose your memory in such fashion]
[that you could write such? On the contrary he said that it had been permitted in]
[the council of Gangra, and doubtlessly he based this upon another pamphlet, which]
[he called ‘Apologeticum,’ and written in Latin quatering (see Latin version).]
[Rogo nunc ut concilio parendum, etc. You do him wrong, now I must take his]
[part. Furthermore beware, my pamphlet here will be read the sooner by those]
[who are at Zürich and accepted as good. Zwingli also has referred to the]
[Carthaginian council. In the first place I showed how there are two kinds of]
[councils, namely, those of the general Christianity, which are called oecu-]
[menica’ or universalia in Greek and Latin; then the particularia. Now]
[it is never found that in the matter of faith the universalia were ever opposed]
[to each other. The Carthaginian council was only a special one. And to]
[every bishop was left his free will and opinion; and only later the council of]
[Niczea was held by 318 Fathers, (thus) they may have had an honest excuse.]
[Why have you omitted this report?” (Faber.) Heinrich Wolf answered]
[thereupon: Zwingli simply said that in a council Paphnutius with difficulty]
[had secured permission for the marriage of the priests, also spoke well against]
[such statutes. Now you come forward and say that he placed Paphnutius in —]
[the Nicean council, although he said to-day (as I asked him about it) that he]
[had never read about a council which had forbidden marriage, but about popes]
[500 years after the birth of Christ. But since the papists speak so consistently]
[about the Nicean council he made his point, how he really had never read.]
[carefully the history of this council, and thus had believed you papists. And]
[you have brought forth the Niczan council, and not Zwingli; then you opposed]
[the Gangrensian council by saying that it was not a general one.” (Gyren-]
[rupfen.’’) ]]
and ordered by the fathers in council to which their successors paid no heed. For example, that the mother of God conceived without sin was decided in public council at Basel, and yet no preaching monk is so foolish as to speak against it. Also many ordinances or rules of the fathers are found which were changed afterwards, especially in our times, and otherwise not kept or given up by the influence of money, so that such things are allowed which were formerly forbidden by the fathers. From this we can see that councils have not always acted in the spirit of the Holy Ghost, but sometimes according to human will and judgment, which is of course forbidden by divine Scripture. For the Holy Ghost does not say this to-day and to-morrow that, but its ordinances and regulations must remain everlasting and changeless. The pious fathers whom we call holy are not for that reason to be dishonored and attacked as to their piety or holiness. For nothing is easier or from native weakness more natural than to err, especially when out of conceit or over-hasty judgment depended upon their own opinion instead of upon the rule of God’s Word. This all shows us that the pillars and supports of many of the fathers, as Augustine and Jerome, are not in harmony in their writings; that often the one thinks not only something else, but by Scripture proves the contrary. But as to the fact that they say it would be too bad if we Christians, and especially our forefathers, had lived so long in error, since from the time of Gregory the intercession of the saints bas been accepted and kept, I say that it is not a question of w/en a thing begun in the Church. We know well that the litany was established in the time of Gregory and kept down to the present. But all we desire is to hear the Scripture upon which my Lord Vicar bases his recommendation that we should pray to the saints. For if such a custom began at the time of Gregory then it did pot exist before, and if before that time men were Christians
[[I said even more about the time further back, especially in tbe time of]
[Cyprian, 1300 years ago, there was intercession of the saints; yes, I shall try it]
[still further back.” (Faber.)]]
and were saved, though they did not hold to the intercession of the saints, and perhaps knew little of it, then it follows that they did not sin who believed in Christ alone and did not consider the intercession of the saints.
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